Buy And Hold Or Buy And Sell (Revisited)
I have written about Buying and Selling and Buying and Holding previously. Here's a relook in a different way.
Many unit trust agents will share the power of compounding with you. They will also show you a small chart that displays how many years it take to make a million with your investment at a certain X% return per annum.
One question. Can the agents promise that consistent X% return per annum every year till you make that million Ringgit/Dollars?
Nevertheless, it's good to have a plan.
Here's my plan.
If you have RM50,000 to invest. And if you make 10% profit with each buying and selling, and then reinvest that profit, how many times will it take to make you a million?
Using a spreadsheet on the computer, on the 32nd time, you will have RM1,055, 688.84. Now, if you make 10% profit per annum and compouding that earnings, you will need 32 years to reach the 1 million mark.
Now, what if we can speed this up? What if in a year, we have 5 times of these kind of opportunities to make 10% profit each time. 32 times will only take you about 6 years to be a millionaire.
I remember a friend once told me a long, long time ago: It's hard to get your RM50,000 but once you have it, making a million is easy.
Now I understand his meaning.
How can I reach that million mark? Buy and sell. Start with an investment sum of RM50,000. Make 10% profit on each trade. Do it 5 times a year. That will be 30 times in 6 years. That will make you compound close to a million in 6 years' time.
Buying and holding it for long term won't make you see 1 million. In 6 years time, your RM50,000 has to see a price jump of 2000% in whatever you invest in. In gold is now RM107, you need to see a price of RM2140 per gram 6 years later! Is that possible?
Back to the story of how do you eat an elephant (not that we really want to eat it)? You cut it up into small pieces and eat it one piece at a time. For investment, the same thing is true. If you want to make big profit, make small profits constantly rather than hoping for a big price jump!
CK posted in my comment section in post #160:
However from my perspective, I'll treat gold investment as a long term (a better alternative than FD) which could be a year or so, or even treat it as one of the retirement funds. I believe we will be surprised to see the amount at the time of withdrawal (10, 20 or even 30 years later). Of course it could be the lowest price at the time we sell them years later, then we could have blame ourselves why we didn't sell it when it is in the peak. If we are really that unlucky (like what happen in 1980s), then you may consider to pass it to your next generation because it is not the only retirement fund we have. (Can a bank do a name transfer for gold account then? Ha). But I still don't think gold will depreciate as demand will be higher after years.
Well, here's my response and I reproduce it here.
Thanks for your analysis. Your comments are valid. Sure, if I have hold on to my gold that I have bought at RM86.03 on 28 Oct 08, I will be grinning ear to ear now. A big profit.
However, we will never know what the price is going to be. I would like to take profit when I am at the top. And buy when the price is at a low.
Of course, unless you have the foresight knowing that the price will be at this level now, RM107.42, you would have kept it till now.
We never know what the price is going to be. The price may dip and go down for many months. And your money will be stuck.
I don't want my money to be stuck. That's why I rather buy and sell at a short period even if I get a lower profit.
Another thing, if you take 10,000 and multiply by 10% five times. 10,000 X 10% X 10% X 10% X 10% X 105 = you get 16,105.10.
If you hold it and make 50%, you will only get 15,000. Nevertheless, markets or gold price don't usually make a big jump of 50% in a year. However, it goes up and down and when you catch the waves at the right time, you will get that 10% five times within a year like I mentioned.
In 2008, gold price started on 2 Jan 08 at USD846.75 and ended on 30 Dec 08 at 869.75. That's a mere 2.7%. Buying and holding sure is not a good strategy here when you see the 2008 chart. You could have easily caught 5 to 6 times of 10% profit.
There is the power of compounding if you make constant small profits.
OK, let's look even longer term. Of course, provided if you hold your gold that long.
In 1979 (30 years ago), the average price was USD306.68. In 1989 (20 years), the average was USD381.44 and 1999 (10 years) was 278.98.
See? If you have bought in 1979 and hold it for 20 years till 1999, you are at a loss from USD306.68 down to USD278.98. And you have to hold it for another 10 years till 2009 to see good profit. But I doubt that you will hold another 10 years or have faith for another 10 years once you saw that your 20 years effort has gone down the drain.
And from the Elliot Waves, if you study it, you can see that once price has reached a top, it can come down to a very low. That can happen in a very long term period. That's why you see a drop in price from 1979 to 1999.
One more thing I would like to add. Gold investment does not reap any interest or dividend if you hold it long term. Your money simply doesn't compound while it sits in physical gold or PBB GIA. The only way your money can grow massively is through the power of compounding. Buying and selling. It is as simple as that. I have mentioned in a previous post. The simple true objective for any investment is to achieve a growth in wealth. The best way and fastest way is to compound your earnings. (http://www.unit-trust-investment.com/2008/12/145-philosophy-of-unit-trust-investment.html)
Again, we never know what is going to be in the future. Who knows? Perhaps one day we don't need any money any more. People will learn to live in peace and work together in a peaceful community and no money is required. What will happen to your gold then? It's going to be just a piece of metal. That's all. Read about the coming 2012 Earth change and stuff like that, Planet X, Nibiru, Pole Shift. If you believe in any of them. We'll never know.
Topping up? You mean Dollar Cost Averaging? It's a fallacy. This strategy is for those who clearly don't know about the market. It's a 'trick' in the Unit Trust industry to get people to invest constantly so that the unit trust companies have constant supply of income. Best to buy and sell. When you have more money to invest, wait till you have sold everything, and want to buy again. Then pool all your money together and buy.
If you are a businessman, would you hold your stock for long term and wait for 5, 10 years for the price to go up before selling it? Or would you sell your stock at a small profit, take the money to buy more stock and sell it and repeat the process? We have to run our personal finance the way a business runs it. That way we will see profit.
Property investors are the same. The smartest one I have seen are usually those that buy and sell. They don't hold it long term unless it generates good rental income. In gold investment, you don't get 'rental income'.
My mom-in-law bought a house to live in and still living in it after more than 30 years. So what if you tell me that the price of the property has appreciated so and so much. It's all only on paper, unrealized profit. The wiser thing to do is to sell it and invest in another better property at a better location. Price of property in Kota Damansara for instance and Bandar Utama too, appreciated a lot if you have sold your old property and bought these. The old property's price has just stop growing much after it reaches a certain age.
Your gold investment is also unrealized profit if you just keep it for long term. You don't see the money. Once in awhile, take some profit out and enjoy a holiday trip. That's what I will do.
There are many other things I can discuss with you on buy-and-sell strategy. Many more examples. I hope you understand my points. :-)
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20 comments:
Hi Carson,
Mm...ok I get your point. So from the chart above, year 2008 seems to be the down trend which buy and sell is the ideal method to optimize the profit.
What about the uptrend chart like currently? Based on 2007, it seems buy and hold for a year will be a better option. No need to go to bank frequently - save petrol, time and parking fees..
So I am wondering is buy and sell during down trend while buy and hold during uptrend a better strategy?
And, I believe currency can be collapsed but not gold. If gold becomes worthless, I would think probably human race have enter a world that I cannot imagine...struggle for water, food or even oxygen to survive where money/gold become worthless...err...out of topic now...ha
CK,
The better strategy, or should I say the best strategy is to ride with your winner. Conversely, leave your loser like cancer.
Always let your winner fly and flow with the wind/current. Cut your losses when you lose. Don't hold on to it.
So, yes, you are right. Buy and sell during a downtrend. Buy and hold when there is an uptrend. However, it depends on how long you want to hold.
long term investment and short term speculation are two different schools, each requires different strategies and methods, eventually one need to practice both of them but if you can't distinguish the two and mix up the strategies and methods, then most likely you will lose more than you earn, ie. sold off your long term earning vehicles and kept the draining ones, which describes what is happening to MOST people again and again ...
Hi Carson,
I just join this gold investment the same with you at the price of RM107.62.
What is your opinion if i want to apply the technical analysis method which i read from Micheal Tsen website http://malaysiapersonalfinance.blogspot.com/search/label/Technical%20Analysis
where you will define it as downtrend and uptrend.
Now we can clearly see that the gold price is at the uptrend where the strategy is but now and sell later ( ride your profit and imply stop profit strategy ).
On the other hand, you can see it was in downtrend all the way in 2008 where we can imply sell now but later, or implement dollar cost averaging to bring the average price lower.
Look foward for your comment.
Thanks
muselayang
muselayang,
I don't want to comment on Michael Tsen's article. Perhaps you can ask him on his website.
Gold at this moment is on the uptrend. Since you have bought at RM107.62, just wait for a good price to sell later and cash out your profit.
In 2008, it was a slight downtrend. However, there was still ups and downs that you can buy and sell. I won't go for dollar cost averaging.
Michael Tsen,
Long term investment and short term speculation have to be used together, in my opinion.
However, let's clarify first what is long term? This is very subjective. Long term can be 3 years, or can be longer. However, to some people 3 years is short term.
I somehow suspect that these short term and long term thingy are created by the people in the unit trust industry to get people to stay invested for a long time. Staying invested for a long time allows the unit trust agent to tell their customer to wait until the price goes up (if the customer has bought at a high price and the market crashed). Or staying invested for a long time allows the unit trust agent to reap more income/commission when the customers keep buying monthly (via dollar cost averaging) for a long, long time.
Take a house for example. The bank gives you 30 years loan and that's a very long time. This profits a few people: the bankers and the developers mainly. The bankers reap so much interest of us if we diligently pay for 30 years. And the developers can sell their house for a higher price because via a loan, our monthly payment becomes low. Hence the developers can sell the house at a higher price.
In the theory of ying and yang, we should not separate long from short, dark from light. Instead, we should combine both and treat them as One. In self defense, Wing Chun is great because in defending, it has the attacking element. In attacking, it has the defending element. I am being a bit philosophical here however I would like to make a point here. We should combine all the good strategies and knowledge and use them as One.
In the so-called long term investment, it is hope that the price will go up over a longer period. It is with this notion that I say, let your winners fly and ride with them. But sell them when they are no longer the case.
In the short term (I don't know how short a period people think it is. One day? One month? One year?), we study the trend and move accordingly with the market to ensure that we flow with the trend. Flowing with the trend makes you profit, not against.
In both long and short term, we can see that they share the same purpose. This purpose is what I have kept saying, "The simple and sole purpose of investment is to make money."
If your investment is losing 10% and you think that it's a long term investment and it will go up further in the future, do you want to hold it? There is no guarantee that the 10% can't go down further. That's what happened to all those who have bought unit trust funds and advised by the agents to keep it for long term.
I would rather cut loss and shift the funds to an investment that can help me recover the 10% loss and make further profit. Never mind if in the long term, that investment can become profitable again. We will never know when that 'long term' will arrive.
Deng Xiaoping said it aptly, "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat."
Maybe it’s better we don’t use dollar cost averaging in gold investment. As what I think DCA concept is you put the same amount of money every month to get an average price without considering it is high or low. We will get some sort of decimal unit. But in gold (PBB case), we buy it in a multiple of 5g. I think if you buy the same amount of unit(g) in an uptrend, you might earn less or even loss. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The top up here I refer is you buy in when the price is lower than your average price or slightly higher in an uptrend. Of course it will be better if we can buy all in the beginning at low price like what Carson suggested. But for some people like me, I might not have that much money at the beginning but I do not want to miss the chance, so I invest a little first. However, it will be better we do our own calculation first on how much unit we want to purchase at that price and calculate whether that is going to earn a lot or just a little difference (which might not worth it) if we top up.
And I think placing all the money at one price is only if you are confident with the analysis and know the trend well.
Of course, Carson, I’m confident with you.
The hard part in an uptrend is the right time to sell. You might earn less if you sell too early. If you are greedy, you might earn less also if it drops and you miss the peak. People always said sell when you are satisfied with the percentage you earn. Well, I admit that we shouldn’t be too greedy. Based on your own analysis and compare with other people analysis (like what Carson is doing), make your own decision.
CK,
The best time to top up is when the trend is still up, but the price has dipped lower than what you have bought in the beginning.
For example, you have bought at RM100 and the trend is going up. All the analysis shows they are going up, however a sudden correction makes the price dips to RM90. Surely, at RM90 you can buy some and top it up. This will lower your cost.
If the price goes up to RM110, and you buy, that will make your initial cost becoming more expensive.
And the danger of buying at RM110 is we never know when the price can make a U-turn and come down. What if upon buying at RM110, the price makes a drastic downturn? Then you will suffer a loss.
Or another case is, the price goes up to RM115 and hits the peak and is coming down to RM114. At this point, you have to sell it. And your profit sure is not going to be much because your cost is made higher with the additional RM110 that you bought.
The peak and valley can be predicted accurately. This is something that I want to reveal in my coming book. Sigh, don't know when I have the time to complete it.
In a comment section (http://www.unit-trust-investment.com/2009/01/159-gold-investment-and-tetrahedron.html), I have mentioned the date of 6 February 2009 (Friday) to be an important date. If you look at the gold chart, you will find that on 9 February 2009 (Monday), the price saw a dip and was a good time to buy for those who have not. My calculation was off by one trading day.
I will let my winners ride as far as it can go (to the peak). And wait for the best opportunity to buy at the valley. This way, we can maximize our profit.
Yes, I also notice the day that you mentioned. And another day is 27 Feb, are you expecting it to be the peak? Because according to the chart, it seems a bit too early for the price to dip which is around 900.
CK,
27 Feb may be another small dip till a major peak on 13 March 2009. Now, this is a risky thing that I am doing, giving away a very specific date. I may lose all credibility after this if on that day nothing happens.
Of course, on the other hand if the date is true and a peak forms on that day, you can then say that you read it first from Carson Ding.
How far do you think the price can go up based on current situation? 1000 or even break last year record? Currently it is around 970.
Most people seem to get out of stock and go for gold as stock markets drop a lot again yesterday.
If it successfully goes up to 1000, will it drop drastically afterwards like last year? My chart shows it will (but my technical analysis is limited, so I doubt about it), what is your point of view and analysis?
CK,
If you ask me, I 'see' price will reach USD1430 by November. For next few weeks, the price needs to break the 980 level first. And then we will see whether there is still strength in the climb to 1000.
And I believe the euphoria this time will take it above 1000. Some say to 1200.
Remember, the western media and research house keep saying it will be above 1000 soon within the first 3 months of the year. Looks to me someone is paying the media and research house heavily to encourage the public to go into gold. And that someone is surely already heavily invested in gold.
As such like last year, once it reached the high of 1033, we will see price plummets very rapidly within a short time. That someone or could be a group of people will sell heavily to cash their profit nice and quick.
Media does influence the market whether you believe it or not.
Whatever it is, I will go with the flow and let it take me to the peak - whatever the price may be. Will sell the peak, buy the valley. Rinse and repeat.
mm...ya, probably.
Back to Aug 07 and Mar 08, gold has increase more than 50% in 7~8 months.
From Dec 08 to now, gold has increase about 30%.
Suddenly feel like those 6~8% per annum ROI is so little.
Gold is going to be very expensive in the future...
CK,
Ya, definitely very little for those who are still talking about 8% or even 10% return per annum.
What more to say those who are still keeping their money in fixed deposit waiting for it to hatch.
So, are you invested in Gold?
Yes, I have (with 1 time top up). The top up is the time you recommended to buy in but that time I buy in, the price is slightly higher.
Can I buy now or wait for the dip at the end of this month (Feb 27)?
caryn,
That depends on how long you are willing to hold it in case the price goes down from here.
I am not sure how high it will go in the short term (in the next month or two). And the profit maybe small for that kind of risk.
Best wait for 27 Feb or 2 Mar 2009. No promise. See how the price is at that time. Might still be high though at that point.
Sometimes we miss the boat and just have to wait for the next one.
Even in the possible low point, I think before you make any decision, it's better to calculate how many unit you are planning to purchase, how much profit you can make or lose and the risk you can take.
I'm not sure whether it is related on US bailout or not but as I see the graph on Sept 08, gold price from 700++ jumps up to 900++ within a month, then drop back to 700++ in the subsequent half month. Obviously there are some great speculators there.
So, what will happen after this new stimulus plan? Mm....
Looks like gold reaches 1000 point earlier than expected. Guess gold price will be very high by Monday, maybe around 120/g to buy?
What could be the possible point by mid of march then? 1200?
Will a top-up be very risky by month end?
1200 is a big jump from 1000. Not sure if we will see that in the mid of March. Nevertheless, your investment is already profitable. Let's not get any more wishful.
Topping up at month end is not recommendable. Unless the price can help you lower your cost. If it only increases your cost and you are thinking to sell in mid of March, i reckon it's a very close shave. Risky.
Good luck.
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